Pre-Grant Publication Number: 20070118658
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Discussion (30)
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5
bruce robertson (about 1 year ago)
What is it? Is it at all required that "management alert format" (MAF perhaps) be defined explicitly. Implicitly, in claim 12, MAFs "include at least one an alert standard format(ASF) protocol and or an active management technology (AMT) protocol. "The ASF document defines its protocol to rest upon SNMP and UDP. So is a MAF an aggregator of lower level protocols ASF/AMT)? Is it a choice of protocols? Would SCSI be a MAF? Is there a SCSI command to load firmware to a SCSI device?
4
Steven Pearson (about 1 year ago)
The first three applications, including this one, are now down to just over two weeks left on PeerToPatent. If you have not yet "voted" on the examples of prior art, please consider doing so. At this time for this application it would seem to not be an issue as we don't have the maximum of 10 examples of prior art submitted yet. Not sure what the implications are of voting if there aren't more than 10, but I'll ask and post back here with the answer.

I think I'll move one of the Intel AMT "research" references to the prior art list, as it is in the neighborhood even if not dead on for this application, and we haven't maxed out yet. If anyone has other/better prior art, now's the time to add it before the buzzer sounds. Happy hunting.
Steven Pearson (about 1 year ago)
I should add that in addition to voting one may also leave any comments on the particular examples of prior art in the "annotations" field of that item. Note that the field is limited to 100 words last I checked, so one needs to be concise. Also, as a reminder, according to the PeerToPatent description, only the prior art examples and their annotations wind up with the USPTO. In particular, research items and discussions on this site are explicitly NOT included.
Steven Pearson (about 1 year ago)
FYI, according to the P2P team, in case of fewer than 10 examples of prior art, the voting results are ignored and all examples are forwarded.
3
Stephen Johnson (about 1 year ago)
We've implemented this sort of feature on products dating back to 2002. We've implemented features within the open source u-boot (www.denx.de) which allow different images (operating systems) to be loaded based on specific inputs which are asserted/deasserted based on geographic address lines per PICMG 2.x specifications.

I could upload the source and user's manuals as prior art...
Brian Pyne (about 1 year ago)
Please submit the source code and the user's manual as prior art so that other members of the community can comment and vote on them. Only prior art submissions and comments on the same help the PTO determine whether to grant a patent.
Brian Pyne (about 1 year ago)
To clarify my previous comment, community members should be precise and succinct in all prior art submissions. Please try to limit submitted code to only the specific and relevant lines and likewise limit text submissions (such as user manuals) to only those pages which will be of the most help to the PTO in judging the originality of the application at hand. Thanks.
2
Mark McCarron (about 1 year ago)
Richard,

This may help clear up the point I was making. A method is a way of doing something.

"A means or manner of procedure, especially a regular and systematic way of accomplishing something"
http://www.answers.com/topic/method?cat=health

This patent application, as it stands, does not present a 'regular and systematic way of accomplishing' the goal of the abstract. In order to achieve that, there would need to be a specific implementation.

In more clearer terms, I could not use this patent application to create a functional system that would achieve the goal of the abstract. I would need to go through a process of hardware/software development for which this patent application would act as a high level overview for. Only that final process could ever provide a 'regular and systematic way of accomplishing' the goal of the abstract. This patent application merely presents a structured idea.

As such, this application is pointless at this stage as it does not fulfil the criteria required to obtain a patent.
Steven Pearson (about 1 year ago)
Well, presumably, if the USPTO were to find that the application fails to fulfill some criteria, it would reject it in the current form. But that topic is outside the domain of this Peer to Patent pilot. This pilot can only turn over examples of potentially relevant prior art documents, along with comments from the public as to how each such document acts as prior art.
Mark McCarron (about 1 year ago)
I feel that USPTO failure to comprehend technical applications is the heart of the problem. Consistantly around the world, patent offices have rejected any patent claim that does not have a specific implementation.

For example:

"Last month, a full bench of the High Court ruled that Lockwood had been entitled to patent certain variations of a deadlock with a safety release that prevented people from accidentally locking themselves into their houses."
http://www.theage.com.au/news/business/sevenyear-battle-over-deadlock-patent-ends/2020/06/23/1182019431224.html

A variation would be required to provide detailed plans as how to construct the device. In other words, a specific implementation would need to be presented. They could not patent the idea, or even a generic flow chart of a deadlock and call that a method.

It is no different when it comes to technology.

In addition, when it comes to software, it could be argued that a program amounts to the "usage" of a processor, rather than an independent process or method. Technically speaking, that would be accurate. A software program cannot exist independently of the architecture it was designed for. The functionality provided by a software application, is really already provided by the hardware (prior art?), a software program just informs the hardware how it shall be "used".

Let's compare that to a real-world example. Could I patent how I use a spade?

I think USPTO has failed to grasp this and that peer-to-patent must highlight these issues.
Steven Pearson (about 1 year ago)
I'm not completely unsympathetic to your concerns. However, this project is limited in what it can do and provides no means to "highlight these issues". According to its design, the pilot will not provide any discussion on such things to the USPTO. There are probably better venues for discussing those concerns.
Steven Pearson (about 1 year ago)
Regarding things built from other, common things...I can't say whether your clever use of a spade would be novel or not, but it is the case that novel things can be built from already well known bits. For example, a new electronic circuit built from commodity components, or a contraption made of nuts, bolts, and formed sheet metal, can be novel in the way it combines the common bits. I don't see why software's direction of existing hardware capabilities would make the latter prior art to the former.
Mark McCarron (about 1 year ago)
A software application is not built from anything. A software application is the usage of a processor's (and perihperal) electronics.

Let's examine this:

"A patent cannot be obtained upon a mere idea or suggestion. The patent is granted upon the new machine, manufacture, etc., as has been said, and not upon the idea or suggestion of the new machine. A complete description of the actual machine or other subject matter for which a patent is sought is required. "
http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/doc/general/index.html#laws

This presents a problem. A complete description of a software application would require the inventor to present USPTO with plans detailing the changes made to the processor throughout execution.

This is the actual process.

Anything else, whether it be an algorithm, or source code is merely an abstract representation of the process. An abstract representation is not an actual process, as such it cannot be patented. Any patent granted based upon this type of evidence would be worthless.

That's the first issue...

The second issue is whether or not a software application is prior art. A processor (and associated electronics) already has the capability to perform the task given to it by a software application. Unlike nuts, bolts, etc., a software application does not combine physical materials to produce something new. A software application is merely turning switches off/on and exposing functionality that already exists in the electronics.

All possible switch combinations would already either be covered by existing manufacturers patents, be deemed obvious or used (in part) throughout an untold amount of applications.

As such, the USPTO has been providing patents based upon a lack of understanding of computer theory.
Mark McCarron (about 1 year ago)
I thought I should expand this a little.

Given this logic of being able to patent a usage of someone else product, that raises some very interesting problems.

USPTO seems to be saying, regardless of whether or not you invented a product, 3rd parties are open to patent the usage of your product. In the case of software, there is nothing being added to the electronics that changes it in any fundemental way.

Does this not amount to the hijacking of a company's intellectual property or invention?

When IBM released the design of the x86 processor they did not patent any aspect of the design, including any combination of the state of its switches or logic circuits.

How can a 3rd party then claim a patent based on the particular state (i.e. switches, logic circuits) of another company's electronics?
Mark McCarron (about 1 year ago)
I feel that USPTO failure to comprehend technical applications is the heart of the problem. Consistantly around the world, patent offices have rejected any patent claim that does not have a specific implementation.

For example:

"Last month, a full bench of the High Court ruled that Lockwood had been entitled to patent certain variations of a deadlock with a safety release that prevented people from accidentally locking themselves into their houses."
http://www.theage.com.au/news/business/sevenyear-battle-over-deadlock-patent-ends/2020/06/23/1182019431224.html

A variation would be required to provide detailed plans as how to construct the device. In other words, a specific implementation would need to be presented. They could not patent the idea, or even a generic flow chart of a deadlock and call that a method.

It is no different when it comes to technology.

In addition, when it comes to software, it could be argued that a program amounts to the "usage" of a processor, rather than an independent process or method. Technically speaking, that would be accurate. A software program cannot exist independently of the architecture it was designed for. The functionality provided by a software application, is really already provided by the hardware (prior art?), a software program just informs the hardware how it shall be "used".

Let's compare that to a real-world example. Could I patent how I use a spade?

I think USPTO has failed to grasp this and that peer-to-patent must highlight these issues.
1
Marc Mengel (about 1 year ago)
So now I've read over this twice and I've decided the whole "alert format" business is a red herring. All this is is a BIOS that has a menu which lets you pick which firmware to download to a given peripheral or peripherals at boot; and which stores the selection for later. This is exactly the kind of thing that PC BIOS-es have been doing for decades. The fact that the different firmware happens to have behavior related to alert formats is simply a demonstration that the different f
Song Song (about 1 year ago)
I would agree that this is not something new. Loading of different pieces of software depends on some kind of circumstances can be seen everywhere, whether it is a firmware or application, in biso or os, it doesn't make any difference. Many bioses can load different device drivers, language modules, etc.
Brian Cragun (about 1 year ago)
I agree with your analysis. Finding specific documented art is the trick.
Jonathan Leffler (about 1 year ago)
I'd like to agree with you, but I can't. The claims are quite specific and alert format is an integral part of the claims, and IMHO cannot be ignored. If another invention misses any point listed in the independent claims, it is not infringing (this patent). If the BIOS does not present a choice of management alert formats, then it is not infringing this patent. Each of claims 1, 6, 9, 14 and 17 specifically mentions management alert formats. You have to think like a patent examiner, and I
Brian Cragun (about 1 year ago)
Thanks for your perspective Jonathan. Then, it will surprise me to find art on this application, because I believe management alert formats to be a relatively new ... um protocol/standard. Yet it seems to me that message information passed between subcomponents would be essentially similar in purpose if not format. Your thoughts?
Jonathan Leffler (about 1 year ago)
There is certainly some similarity between choosing a particular alert format and any other choice made by the BIOS/POST processing. Given that alert formats are new (I wasn't sure of that, though I suspected as much), if the patent office takes a literal interpretation of things (and, in general, that's what they do), then anything not related to alert formats is off the hook for this patent because each independent claim (1, 6, 9, 14, and 17) -- and hence each dependent claim because each dependent claim says 'the method of claim N' where N precedes it -- says 'alert formats'. The patent doesn't mention the possibility of storing the chosen alert format, AFAICR, so if the system remembered the choice and used it as a default next time, it would not then be using this patent -- if it can get over the bootstrapping problem. The very first time the system is run, you probably get to answer the question - in which case, that might violate the patent. OTOH, if the default was provided/defined, and you had to choose a BIOS configuration option to select which alert format, then maybe the patent would not apply any more. The way it read to me was that if the machine didn't ask you the question, it wasn't violating the patent. But IANAL.

So, as drawn up, the patent seems to me to be very narrow, but also as a result of being narrow, it is harder to find relevant prior art.

If you take a broader view - that an alert format is simply (yet another) choice resolved by the BIOS in conjunction with user input, then GRUB and other such systems are more relevant. But it is not clear to me that the USPTO would take such a view.

If any of the legal people on the team would like to weigh in, I'd be delighted to get their views on the issue.

(PS: it is useful that the peertopatent.org people updated the word limit to 500 words - I suggested it to them and they did it within about 24 hours. Thanks, people!)
Mark McCarron (about 1 year ago)
I feel that there is an issue that is being missed. There is no actual technology being described in this patent, rather, an expression of how such a technology could possibly be created from a high level point of view.

There is no physical invention being presented.

As such, I feel that this patent claim should be classed as an idea. That is, it is presenting the idea of how such a method or process could be created. It does not demonstrate a physical method of implementation, nor a process of implementation or even an implemented invention.

There are no schematics in the diagrams, no demonstrations of a functional system and nothing tangible beyond vague flowcharts.

I suppose I'm asking, where is the invention, method or process as it would relate to a real world object?
Richard Ahlquist (about 1 year ago)
Mark I agree it is quite vague. Reading claim one with the BIOS used in some older motherboards in mind I can almost think claim 1 is not valid due to prior art. Example follows.

ASUS A7V333 motherboard comes to mind. It has several features like mentioned, for example if a bad BIOS setting is chosen and the system hangs on reboot it will prompt you to enter new CMOS selections. Also there is an option to enable Voice Reporting during post. This voice reporting then alerts you to any issues such as faulty memory, cpu etc. Since you can chose to be alerted by POST beep codes, or Voice Messages I would call this selection. Since the Voice messages IIRC are stored in firmware and the user can change what the content of those that may also be of interest.
Kerwin Dunsmore (about 1 year ago)
You make a good point about whether the BIOS would ask for an 'alert format' on *every* boot, Jonathon. The BIOSes I've seen never present choices to the user at boot-up unless there's an unusual event -- (no keyboard, etc.). The user must choose to enter a configuration phase for selecting *subsequent* boot defaults. A BIOS that asked questions on each boot would be useless for remote booting unless the selections were made available via comm. link. This may be the point of claim [20], which refers to a device which "comprises" a NIC.

This patent application appears to offer a way of implementing user choices that would otherwise be made permanent by a peripheral manufacturer and a BIOS writer.
Claim [15] would download a user-chosen image to a device PROM.
Claim [16] would receive a new device image from an unspecified source and store it in some unspecified PROM (probably BIOS space).
Robert Jenkins (about 1 year ago)
I believe there is a very basic problem in the terminology of the patent.
BIOS is well defined as Basic Input Output System.
Although typical PC BIOS roms may include other utility programs such as Setup and Flash tools, these are not part of the BIOS itself, they are included in the EPROM or Flash ROM for user convenience - think back to early PCs where the Setup was by switches or a program run from a floppy disk, or the BIOS of a PDA, likely in the same ROM as OS and applications.
The 'core' BIOS simply provides a standardised interface to the device hardware and loads the bootloader program from some memory, media or network.
Anything beyond this is a program or utility etc., which happens to be in ROM.
The remainder of the claims appear little more than 'boot menu' type options, and the concept of downloading firmware to devices on the fly is certainly not new or original - it's in common use, I have at least two devices attached to this PC that use downloaded firmware.
Overall, I don't see the claims as 'none obvious'.
Steven Pearson (about 1 year ago)
My interpretation of Claim 20 is that it narrows the independent claim (Claim 17 in this case) such that the device referred to in the independent claim, i.e., the device to be configured with the alert format indicated by user input, happens to be a NIC. As far as I can tell, there's no means for remote startup control intended in that. If that is a weakness in usefulness, that may be a subject for review in examination, but is not something we can directly address through this pilot project.
Steven Pearson (about 1 year ago)
If the means of obtaining user input and setting a configuration item based on same is by itself novel, then why on earth would the inventors and their lawyer(s) limit the scope of the claims to doing so for one specific configuration item? On the other hand, if the management alert format item must be included in order to make the independent claims novel, then mustn't there be a whole family of patents available for user selectable <configuration item[i]>? But really, if the rest of the independent claims are not novel without the management alert format included, I find it hard to convince myself that they can be novel even *with* that configuration item included. This application does not claim management alert formats as novel, nor the general configuration of devices with same. In fact, those notions are included as background. My conclusion is the only novelty this attempts to claim is the use of a particular means (that was apparently not considered novel on its own) to configure the particular item. And I find it hard to believe that is inobvious.
Kathy Vieyra (about 1 year ago)
If you are correct that the only novelty attempting to be claimed here is the use of a particular means to configure a particular item (and it does not appear to be novel), then the issue becomes finding prior art that shows using a particular means to configure a particular item. Anyone have any such prior art?
Marc Mengel (about 1 year ago)
Let me see if I understand your point with an example:
If I have an existing mechanism that lets me choose between arbitrary programs at system boot, and I have existing programs that, say, operate can openers, you feel that using the first mechanism to choose between programs that operate can opener A versus can opener B is patentable?
Steven Pearson (about 1 year ago)
Hi, Marc. The visual threading of discussions is not ideal here, and I'm not completely certain which message you're responding to. Perhaps it is Jonathan's. In case it's mine (the one starting "If the means..."), my response follows. A: No, quite the opposite. My statement concerning "a whole family of patents" is intended to point out that it seems a bit absurd.